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Welcome to our forum on cults and false religions. If you are linked to any of these cults, I warn you to leave them and find the truth in Jesus.
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Sosthenes
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Invitation to talk about Islam |
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I want to welcome Yasmin and I wish to give an invitation for Him/Her to talk about Islam at length. It is my hope that both sides will keep the discussion respectful with just the facts being discussed or debated. I welcome you here.
Please tell us a little about yourself. Why are you Muslim, how long have you been Muslim, what was it like growing up, what version of the Qu'ran do you use and is there an online version for us to follow along in English for us to use? I'm not as an expert in Islam as you are but we have been taught some things and we're very capable and it is unlikely that you will change us here.
A little information about me. I've been a Christian since about 1980 and I would probably consider myself a fundamental academic Christian as I'm somewhere between Baptist and Calvary Chapel but the two commentaries I would follow are by Dr. Oliver B. Green and by Dr. J. Vernon McGee. I'm a working parent and I'm hapily married and dealing with different issues takes time so as long as we both have equal time to respond and as long as no one tries to overpower the board, I presume the owner of the board won't have a problem with our discussion. I use the King James version of the Bible as I prefer that version but I don't limit myself to it.
The statement of faith that I would follow is one of several but I would follow the same one by Through The Bible Radio:
http://www.thruthebible.org/site/...23/k.FFFF/Doctrinal_Statement.htm
If we discuss the Trinity, what I will discuss comes from the author Dr. Robert Bowman (but not limited to) or the Bible:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t10.html
Part of what I view about Islam can be found from this section of the statement of faith:
| Quote: | | We believe that Satan is the originator of sin, and that under the permission of God he through subtlety led our first parents into transgression, thereby accomplishing their moral fall and subjecting them and their posterity to his own power; that he is the enemy of God and the people of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped and that he who in the beginning said, "I will be like the most High," in his warfare appears as an angel of light, even counterfeiting the works of God by fostering religious movements and systems of doctrine, which systems in every case are characterized by a denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ and of salvation by grace alone. (Genesis 3:1-19; Romans 5:12-14; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 11:13-15; Ephesians 6:10-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 Timothy 4:1-3.) |
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ummyasmin
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Peace!
Hi again Sosthenes, thank you for your introduction. Likewise I think a respectful discussion is a worthy goal.
As for me, I was raised in a new religious movement that is an offshoot of Islam, but by the grace of God I found Islam over a decade ago. I live in Australia, so I have always been part of a religious minority (just swapped minorities hehe). I don't know if that makes my perspective unusual or not, I guess it's just a fact of life that I tend to side with the underdog as they say.
I pray according to the Maliki school of sacred law, am Sunni (albeit with Zaydi Shi'i and neo-Mu'tazilah leanings I must confess) and am currently learning from a Mevlevi Shaykh although I haven't made baya' yet. (God willing one day). I have a Masters of Islamic Studies and studied Arabic for a little time in Sana'a, Yemen (my heart has been left behind there, and God willing I want to return one day.)
There are a couple of Qur'an translations I like to quote from. Thomas Cleary for style (but it's not online AFAIK); Muhammad Asad for commentaries; and Yusuf Ali or Pickthall's are good too. If they don't express the language correctly I sometimes just translate the passage myself. The online site I most often go to for Qur'an is Qur'an Search and the Bible site I mostly use is Bible Gateway (I'm relatively familiar with King James but likewise I am sure you are more expert in Christian scripture and knowledge than myself.)
I love learning about religion (even ones that are not my own) and I find people's religiosity absolutely fascinating. I enjoy a good theological or philosophical discussion and am pretty pluralistic. Having said that, I don't think all religious traditions and movements are equal. Whilst the great spiritual traditions of the world, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Christianity, and so on have clearly nourished millions of souls, there is a world of difference between the teachings of Jim Jones and Mother Theresa, or Usamah bin Laden and Fethullah Gulen. So, I do think the Muslim world has its cults along with its normative religious traditions.
I am Muslim because of the same reason you are Christian (I suspect). I believe I have found Truth, by the grace of God. Everything else is icing on the cake. I do love the ritual traditions, the intellectual pull, the community (when it is at its best) and the history is rich and fascinating. Ultimately though, everything boils down to a desire to love God and be loved by Him.
My name "Umm Yasmin" means "Mother of Yasmin" (Yasmin is my daughter, praise be to God). It is a traditional Arabic custom that when a person becomes a parent, they take a title of respect which means "Mother of..." or "Father of...".
So, in the spirit of learning a little more about each other: you mentioned you've been Christian since 1980-ish, what were you before hand? I've read a bit on Wikipedia about the Calvary Chapel (I know a little bit about the Baptists, my brother went to a Baptist school) but I haven't come across the Green and McGee commentaries, are they available online? I must ask too - are you male or female (your name doesn't give it away, actually - what does Sosthenes mean and why did you choose it?)
With regards
UY
_________________
~~A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality~~ |
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Sosthenes
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ummyasmin wrote: | So, in the spirit of learning a little more about each other: you mentioned you've been Christian since 1980-ish, what were you before hand? I've read a bit on Wikipedia about the Calvary Chapel (I know a little bit about the Baptists, my brother went to a Baptist school) but I haven't come across the Green and McGee commentaries, are they available online? I must ask too - are you male or female (your name doesn't give it away, actually - what does Sosthenes mean and why did you choose it?)
With regards
UY |
I was a non-Christian before I became a Christian.
You can listen to the McGee commentaries online or download them for free at ttb.org but the Dr. Oliver. B. Green commentaries are not available online. You might be able to hear them on shortwave radio if you consult their websites.
Various Calvary Chapels have studies online but this one is not complete:
http://twft.com/?page=C2000
I use blueletterbible.org because I like it better than Biblegateway and you can also click on the meaning of the word there. I think it has a better search.
I also use different translations like the Kenneth Wuest Translation (KWT). He was part time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute and he was one of the New American Standard Bible translators. I have his tranlation and his commentaries on his translations. His four volume set has almost doubled in price since I've been promoting him but I don't know if I had anything to do with it. It is more likely that a few were sold, and they decided that they were underpriced.
I also started using "Principles of Biblical Hermeneutics" by Edwin Hartill. Is there a guide on rules to interpret the Qu'ran?
Is there a Quran that has a decent numbering system? And is there an equivalent to Strong's or Young's concordance for the Quran? Do you use any dictionaries? And how do you fit in or see yourself as to the rest of the world that is Muslim?
Who was Sosthenes? He was a ruler of the Synagogue and persecution came because Paul was speaking in Macadonia. Sosthenes was beaten and he came to believe probably as a result of it. I chose the name because people were stalking or harassing me on the internet and I wanted to have a Biblical name. I witness to people who are hostile to the Christian faith and one athiest has slandered me and other Christians on the internet using my real name through games that he played on us because he wanted to make us look unintelligent. It was at a time period where the board owner wanted us to use our real names because he had a belief that people were less likely to say things that they wouldn't normally say if we used our real names and it gave someone else an opportunity to slander us. It is hard to find something not taken on the internet because if you can think it, someone else has thought it. If you go to boards, people take names like "Centurion", sit on them and never use them.
Acts 18:17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat [him] before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
I'm a male, a father and happily married. |
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ummyasmin
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Assurance of salvation |
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| Quote: | "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their light will run before them and on their right hands; they will say: Our Lord! Perfect our light for us, and forgive us! Lo! Thou art Able to do all things," (66:8-9).
Yasmin,
How can you say that Muslims are guaranteed salvation when this verse in the Qu'ran says "may" remit your evil deeds? |
Peace!
Actually that ayat summarises the Muslim position pretty well. It says on the Day of Judgment "la yukhzi allahu alnnabiyya waallathina amanu ma`ahu", translated there as "Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him".
The assurance of salvation for the believer is described in many passages, I've just selected a couple to illustrate:
"Verily, those who have attained to faith and do good works, and are constant in prayer, and dispense charity - they shall have their reward with their Sustainer, and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve." (Q2:277)
Yet those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds We shall bring into gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time: this is, in truth, God's promise - and whose word could be truer than God's? (Q4:122 my emphasis)
Incidently, this concept of God rewarding those who have both faith and works is described in the Bible in James, where it says faith without works is dead.
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?... Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? ... You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (James 2:14-24)
That we can constantly repent, seek the forgiveness and mercy of God, and be assured of his forgiveness without the need for an intercessor or substitutionary atonement is a major difference between Christianity and Islam. The Qur'an says:
"O my servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Q39:53)
All one needs to do is repent of the sin, and ask for God's forgiveness. In words that God spoke to our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, He said:
God, the Almighty, has said: O child of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O child of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O child of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it. (Hadith Qudsi)
Now, why then don't Muslims go around saying "I have the assurance of salvation?" if God promises all of this to Muslims. It is because of the position of humility we take before Him, in the knowledge that only He knows the future. I may well think right now I'm a good Muslim (and if it is true that I am, and God knows best, then I have the full assurance of salvation) but I can't guarantee what I will be doing in the years to come from now, I can only live and know the moment. God preserve me from it, but what if I left Islam and became a polytheist. If I did, then God's promise of salvation would not cover me, and He knows best.
But this is exactly the same problem Christians face. How many Bible-believing, church-attending Christians have read Dawkins' books and become atheists? What are we to make of the fate of their souls from a Christian perspective? Surely, the promise of salvation no longer extends to them? If you say it never did in the first place, they were just *deluded* that they were truly saved, then how can any Christian be sure they are not similarly deluded with their assurance of salvation?
According to the Bible, Jesus warned about Christians who would *think* they have salvation, but in fact do not.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)
Regards
Umm Yasmin
_________________
~~A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality~~ |
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Sosthenes
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Assurance of salvation |
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| ummyasmin wrote: | | Quote: | "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their light will run before them and on their right hands; they will say: Our Lord! Perfect our light for us, and forgive us! Lo! Thou art Able to do all things," (66:8-9).
Yasmin,
How can you say that Muslims are guaranteed salvation when this verse in the Qu'ran says "may" remit your evil deeds? |
Peace!
Actually that ayat summarises the Muslim position pretty well. It says on the Day of Judgment "la yukhzi allahu alnnabiyya waallathina amanu ma`ahu", translated there as "Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him".
The assurance of salvation for the believer is described in many passages, I've just selected a couple to illustrate:
"Verily, those who have attained to faith and do good works, and are constant in prayer, and dispense charity - they shall have their reward with their Sustainer, and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve." (Q2:277) |
I posted that question on another board. Thank you for answering but I didn't want to get ahead of myself as I would like this discussion to have a little bit of organization or structure as I don't always want to be all over the place all of the time.
Please make up a list of topics and number them. Please number the points of tension of disagreements that we can debate between Christianity and Islam. You can include Judiasm if you want. I will make up a list but I just have a partial list.
| Quote: | | "Incidently, this concept of God rewarding those who have both faith and works is described in the Bible in James, where it says faith without works is dead." |
I actually cracked this verse. A lot of people think that James contradicts Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 and I spent a lot of years being frustrated over it but I spent some nights not sleeping and researching it and I actually contradict people's misunderstanding about James. The verse is about showing your faith to other men because James 2:18 says "shew (show) me" and the problem is that you can't see faith or the spirit because John 3:8 says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." You are trying to measure something with natural eyes or natural understanding and Jesus says that you 'can't tell where it (the spirit) comes and goes from'. You are trying to with human understanding and human eyes determine whether or not someone has salvation. The problem is, "What if you get it wrong?"
Jesus knows that many of you will get it wrong so that is why He said:
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
But if you try to use James, I hope you are as good as someone who learned from Jesus. James can get away with saying what he says but can you?
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
| Quote: | | But this is exactly the same problem Christians face. How many Bible-believing, church-attending Christians have read Dawkins' books and become atheists? What are we to make of the fate of their souls from a Christian perspective? Surely, the promise of salvation no longer extends to them? If you say it never did in the first place, they were just *deluded* that they were truly saved, then how can any Christian be sure they are not similarly deluded with their assurance of salvation? |
There are professors of salvation and posessors of salvation. I follow the descrimination principal that Muslims can hear the word of God (the Christian Bible) but not receive it as the Word of God:
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Jesus gave his word unto his children which were his disciples. He gave the meaning and interpretation to them which leaves out the world and many Muslims that don't want to hear.
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
The troubling part is that you can hear but not understand.
John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
It is when you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins that you can receive the Holy Spirit and not before. Faith in His blood is required for salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor. 2:14 speaks about the unsaved world as many Muslims who are unsaved.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
You have to take heed how you hear. What are your ears for? Are you going to take time to listen or are you just going to stay indoctrinated in Islam that you don't want to listen?
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you.
Should a Muslim believe in the last days, he may have to take the skirt of a Jew to learn God's words and God's ways. Why?
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
We contend for a faith that was "once" and for all given unto the saints of God which is the gospel and the Christian message. It is given freely to anyone who wants to hear but if everything could have been grasped easily then the natural man would have received the things of the spirit and Jesus wouldn't have had to teach. That is why learning from someone who is taught by someone who is taught is important though not always correct because someone can learn error and re-teach error. Take heed how you hear.
Please suggest a good online version with a good numbering system and please tell me why in this modern day and age you still have to translate the Qu'ran. Is it because someone wants to obscure the meaning that it isn't translated accurately? I suppose you have the same problems that language and meanings change which is what we face.
But let us each come up with a list.
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ummyasmin
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Peace!
| Quote: | | I posted that question on another board. Thank you for answering but I didn't want to get ahead of myself as I would like this discussion to have a little bit of organization or structure as I don't always want to be all over the place all of the time. |
That's fair enough. I posted a reply here, as I didn't want to hijack Christine's thread but I think an organised discussion is a worthy aim.
| Quote: | | Please make up a list of topics and number them. Please number the points of tension of disagreements that we can debate between Christianity and Islam. You can include Judiasm if you want. I will make up a list but I just have a partial list. |
I think this is a good idea, would you like to post your list? Before my list though, I would start with the question: The Bible versus the Qur'an - which scripture is the Word of God, and how do we decide?
This is the important one, because there isn't much point saying the Qur'an is wrong only because it contradicts the Bible, if a person doesn't accept the Bible to be the word of God in the first place - and vice versa.
For example, you mentioned an interpretation of James different to the one I gave. Here I was simply pointing out there exists a passage in the Bible that confirms quite nicely what the Qur'an has to say about the relationship between faith and works. That there may be other Biblical verses that *contradict* the Qur'anic notion of faith and works doesn't mean a great deal to me, because I don't believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. It may contain (and does contain) many verses that contradict the Qur'an. But just because they contradict the Qur'an doesn't mean I believe that the Bible's version is true. In fact, I believe Paul--who did separate out faith and works-- inserted a lot of his ideas into Christian teachings, which the Qur'an has come to clarify and correct. I was simply pointing out that at least one early Christian author of the Bible had a different understanding than Paul, and one that is much closer to the Qur'anic understanding.
Then I would list:
* God's ability to forgive: can He just forgive the penitent or does He need an intermediary (eg. Jesus' as the substitutionary atonement)?
* Can a person *know* that they personally are saved and will remain saved until they die?
* Why does the idea of Jesus being God, contradict monotheism in how the Jews and Muslims understand it?
* What is the truth about the crucifixion? Is `Isa the same as Jesus? Who died on the cross? Was Jesus resurrected?
| Quote: | | There are professors of salvation and posessors of salvation. |
Ay, there's the rub. How does a person know if they are a professor or a possessor? I'm sure there is many a professor who was absolutely sure they were a possessor until they lost their faith. Why not simply take the humble position that we do, and say "God knows best" and have faith that He is merciful and kind, and promises to reward those who are truly saved.
| Quote: | | I follow the descrimination principal that Muslims can hear the word of God (the Christian Bible) but not receive it as the Word of God |
We have a similar concept as well:
Of them [the idolators] there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients." (Q6:25)
As to those who reject faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. (Q2:6)
And they who give the lie to Our messages are deaf and dumb, in darkness deep. Whomever God wills, He lets go astray; and whomever He wills, He places upon a straight way. (Q6:39)
However, only God knows who is in this state, and the blessed Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, informed us that God doubly rewards the people of the Book who accept Islam:
Abu Musa Ash'ari relates that the Holy Prophet said: 'There are those who will have a double reward. One, a person of the People of the Book who believes in his Prophet and believes in Muhammad (#1370 collected in Imam Nawawi's Gardens of the Righteous)
| Quote: | Please suggest a good online version with a good numbering system and please tell me why in this modern day and age you still have to translate the Qu'ran. Is it because someone wants to obscure the meaning that it isn't translated accurately?
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LOL, no... no nefarious plan. It's merely that lots of people don't speak Arabic. As you said, we face the same semiotic problems when trying to translate the Word of God into various languages. I studied Arabic, so I tend to swap between translations or translate a word/passage myself, to try and bring out the nuances as I understand them. For example, Arabic is a gendered language and the masculine plural is used for any group of men and/or any mixed group of men and women. When translators use "mankind" (which in English once upon a time used to refer to mixed male and female) I prefer to use "humanity" simply so that it is not gender exclusive, and so on.
I am relatively happy to use the Yusuf Ali translation if that makes it easier for you. It is a widely available translation, and largely represents the understandings of the vast majority of Sunni Muslims. It is available here (you can turn off Arabic original, transliterations, audio etc. if you want to just stick to the English.)
As for how I reference it - in a forum like this I put Q (for Qur'an as a text) then the surah/chapter number: ayah/verse number. Eg. "Q1:1" refers to the first verse of the first chapter of the Qur'an.
Peace!
UY
_________________
~~A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality~~ |
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Sosthenes
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| ummyasmin wrote: | I think this is a good idea, would you like to post your list? Before my list though, I would start with the question: The Bible versus the Qur'an - which scripture is the Word of God, and how do we decide?
This is the important one, because there isn't much point saying the Qur'an is wrong only because it contradicts the Bible, if a person doesn't accept the Bible to be the word of God in the first place - and vice versa.
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During the presidential debate, an internet user asked the question to both candidates,"What don't you know and how will you learn it?" I thought that question was a bold question but very valid. I suppose you could rephrase the question by asking,"How would you know which religion was true if you never possessed the real thing?" The problems with answering the question for man is sin, separation from God, being at enmity (hostility or deep seated ill-will, wordnet.princeton.edu) with God. It is also because Satan's hosts foster religious movements because he is making it a maze for people to find heaven and because he knows that many people say, "no" to salvation so he went to make it a lot harder to find the way "Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."-Matthew 7:14 It can be very difficult for the truth of God to be communicated in Muslim countries because there are men who hold the truth of God (down) in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) but you are held without excuse: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"-Romans 1:20 Here you are talking to me through the internet and I can give you all that you need to know to be saved and to go to heaven but God judges by what you do with Him and He does that by letting you make the judgment. There is a possibility that people I thought would never make it into heaven will be there and there are people who I think would have made it into heaven will not make it into heaven. God knows His sheep and He will separate the sheep from the goats one day.
There were two trees in the garden of Eden. According to the Biblical account the woman was deceived and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God didn't allow Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life. Why?
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
It was an act of grace that the curse came and that our bodies die from natural death and through this life we have to suffer. If Adam and Eve had taken from the tree of life and ate, they would have lived forever in these bodies contaminated with sin.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Imagine if the people in Genesis 6:5 lived forever. Imagine if they were sealed in their bodies, they never died and they roamed the earth. They would be in continual learning and continually corrupt the earth.
So why doesn't God just give people the tree of life? You would live forever and you would eventually go from a relatively good life to worse.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I think that if it would be possible to do things the wrong way, the wrong people would get into heaven. I think that if God allowed everyone to eat of the tree of life, you would live forever in a body of sin.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
I think that if people understood, they could have been saved for the wrong reasons. I think that people could eat of the tree of life and live forever but freedom was what Adam and Eve had. They were allowed to eat of every tree in the garden except one tree. They were allowed to live there until they sinned. Freedom allows people to rebel and freedom is what scholars call a privation or lack of God's righteousness because we are allowed to make decisions apart from the will of God. One third of the angels fell when Satan rebelled and took them with him in his rebellion. And man has never really governed himself well.
So here is how you tell whether the word of God is the word of God or not. I throw the word of God at you and they are like seeds. You can listen. Other people can water the seed and help make it grow. The Holy Spirit comes along and convicts you somehow and for some people it takes a while because I miss throwing the seeds, I throw it in the wrong place or it falls on good ground and you understand what I'm saying. The seed has all the information it needs to grow. The Holy Spirit will tug on your heart and you can come and know the truth and if you feel Him tugging on your heart, know it is real. But if you reject then that is your choice. You can see all the evidence until then but I think it is faith in the true Jesus that activates your faith to be saved because faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. What separates possessors from every other professor or religion is justification by grace through faith plus nothing. Salvation is a free gift but you have to hold out your hands and while it is a free message, it doesn't come cheap. Because of your sin, God had to send His Son to sweat and to suffer down here and pay an infinite price because "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"-Romans 3:23
God loves you and has a plan for your life.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Sorry about the last message of mine. I didn't mean it to be a rub but I already know there are things in each of our books that each of us would find offensive but any debate will bring these up which will be offensive and we will end up talking about them, Lord willing, if we are going to have a discussion. It is not my intention to be offensive but each of our messages ultimately is offensive to the other though I take no offense. It is my responsibility to the other users and to God to teach the truth.
My view is that Islam came way too late and I don't find there to be any rational (from all the arguments and evidence that I am aware of) areas of cohesion between Christianity and Islam or the Bible and the Qur'an and I find that for me to make the jump from the Bible to the Qur'an and to view the Qur'an as just another revelation or another step is not a leap but a milestone leap in the dark. I feel that Islam is what Paul might call "...a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."-Romans 10:2 and I'm not saying that you don't have facts. I'm saying that it isn't knowing or experiential knowledge and even false spirits can give you an experience but it is precise and correct knowledge of the ethical and divine:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. |
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ummyasmin
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I suppose you could rephrase the question by asking,"How would you know which religion was true if you never possessed the real thing?" The problems with answering the question for man is sin, separation from God, being at enmity (hostility or deep seated ill-will) with God. |
Yes, there is a similar doctrine in Islam, although there is no concept of inherited original sin, and of course in the Qur'an, woman (Eve) is not blamed for tempting Adam. (Phew, is that a relief)
It was part of God's foreknowledge and plan that Man would be sent to earth as His vicegerent (Q2:30), so even though Adam and Eve were (together) fooled by the Satan, when they realised what had happened, they asked for God's forgiveness, and He forgave them. Simple as that - because God can choose to forgive us  (Q20:116-124, Q7:19-25 and Q2:35-39)
| Quote: | | So here is how you tell whether the word of God is the word of God or not. I throw the word of God at you and they are like seeds. You can listen. |
I believe the holy Qur'an to be the discerner by which I can tell what is true and what is not, from the various books of scriptures--such as the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Bible etc.--extant amongst men. In one of my favourite passages, God says:
To thee We sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute (Q5:4
So, ultimately dear Sosthenes, my brother-in-humanity if not in faith, even if we agree to disagree on this matter or that, it is God that will reveal to us in the fullness of time His will and the meaning of His words.
| Quote: | | My view is that Islam came way too late |
Too late?? This is a curious statement. Of course we believe that all revelations from God from the mists of the dawn of human history through to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon them all, are *all* part of Islam. So Islam is early as well as late, but I am curious: what is wrong with 610 of the common calendar as opposed to 1 of the common calendar, in the many eons for which human beings have lived?
| Quote: | | I don't find there to be any rational (from all the arguments and evidence that I am aware of) areas of cohesion between Christianity and Islam or the Bible and the Qur'an |
There are certainly some major differences (some of which I have listed above) but there is much in common too. The Ten Commandments springs to mind; the belief in the omniscience, the timelessness, of the Creator - who will one day call us all to account for our beliefs and our lives at the Day of Judgment; the honourable station of the blessed Virgin Mary; the importance of prayer and fasting... these are all areas common to Muslims and Christians.
Quite a number of the people of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah hath power over all things.(Q2:109)
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~~A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality~~ |
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Sosthenes
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ummyasmin wrote: | Then I would list:
* God's ability to forgive: can He just forgive the penitent or does He need an intermediary (eg. Jesus' as the substitutionary atonement)?
* Can a person *know* that they personally are saved and will remain saved until they die?
* Why does the idea of Jesus being God, contradict monotheism in how the Jews and Muslims understand it?
* What is the truth about the crucifixion? Is `Isa the same as Jesus? Who died on the cross? Was Jesus resurrected?
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1) God forgave in the Old Testament but it was only temporary but it required the shedding of blood.
2) The idea/truth of Jesus being God doesn't contradict monotheism.
3) The truth about crucifixion is that Jesus died on the cross.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
I have some questions from other sources:
(1) Has the Bible been annulled?
(2) Has the Bible been corrupted?
(3) Does the Bible contradict itself
(4) What do you believe about the gospel of Barnabus?
(5) Do you have any doubtful texts of the Bible?
(6) What does it mean to a Muslim that God is merciful and passionate? What does it mean to you?
(7) Is it possible for a Muslim to be saved without acknowledging the deity of Jesus?
(8) Did Jesus really die on the cross?
(9) What does the cross mean to a Muslim?
(10) What does the sacrifice in Genesis 22 mean to a Muslim in your tradition?
(11) What does it mean to you to have faith in and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?
(12) Does the Bible contain prophecies of Mohammed?
(13) Does Mohammed meet the Biblical criteria for a prophet?
(1) Islam’s view of God involves a form of agnosticism because we can’t know God’s essence and therefore unable to know God.
(2) There are problems with Islamic Determinism because God performs contradictory actions as leading astray and being the one who guides.
(3) The moral problem with Islamic Determinism is that man isn’t responsible for his actions because God is responsible and I find it troubling that Islam doesn’t recognise the concept of Original sin. It has been stated that you would have to change the passage to state something else: [9:51] Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what GOD has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In GOD the believers shall trust."
(4) 6:35 And if it distress thee that those who deny the truth [24] turn their backs on thee - why, then, if thou art able to go down deep into the earth or to ascend a ladder unto heaven [25] in order to bring them a [yet more convincing] message, [do so;] but [remember that] had God so willed, He would indeed have gathered them all unto [His] guidance. Do not, therefore, allow thyself to ignore [God's ways]. [26]
“If thou art able” implies that Muhammad wasn’t able to do miracles.
(5) The problem with there being no canon for the hadith seems to be troubling to anyone wanting to consider Islam.
I have more questions. |
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ummyasmin
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Wow that's quite a list. Do you want to take one of your preferred topics and start a thread, and I'll do the same?
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~~A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality~~ |
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